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0935
Debate, Oct. 24-27 at Hutson, Ark.
Mr. Bogard boldly asserted that the Baptists are the only people that can trace a line of their churches back to Christ. Time would not permit a full discussion of historic arguments. Bogard contented himself with assertions and a few scattering quotations from Baptist authorities. I called on him to find the name "Baptist Church" in literature before 1644. He then read from Benedict to prove that there were Baptist churches before the 17th century. I replied: "I can find hosts of Baptist preachers who claim there were Baptist churches before that date, but I call on Mr. Bogard to find that name in any literature written before that date." Bogard replied: "Of course the name 'Baptist Church' cannot be found in literature before 1644, because the name 'Baptist Church' is an English term, and the English language did not exist before that date." Did Bogard ever hear of Anglo-Saxons?
Mr. Bogard: "Salvation is wholly by grace, Eph. 2:8-10.. 'By grace are ye saved through faith.' We are first created unto good works." I said that Mr. Bogard fails to notice that though we are saved by grace, yet it is through faith. Now, there is a divine side and a human side. Grace brings salvation, but faith appropriates it. If we are created in Christ before we do anything, what about faith and repentance? These are commands, and the sinner is active in obeying them. Besides. Mr. Bogard argues that salvation comes in answer to prayer. While these are not the good works that Paul spoke of they are as much works as baptism. In fact, Jesus calls faith a work.
Mr. Bogard: "It is not a question of what brings grace. I am thirsty and take a drink. The water alone quenches the thirst, thought I many ask for it and it may be brought to me in a dipper. When grace reaches is the point of controversy between us." I replied that I am glad my friend made that statement and gave that illustration, for it robs him of much that is usually said about grace in discussing the design of baptism. Whether the grace of salvation comes to us in baptism will be the point at issue when we get to that question, and not whether baptism destroys grace. The usual argument is, therefore, eliminated.
On the operation of the H.S. in conversion, Mr. Bogard argued that the gospel much be preached and that the H.S. must personally accompany the word to give it force and make it effective. He modifies the doctrine of inherited depravity till he makes it but little more than an inclination to sin, yet he presents it as a basis for the necessity for a distinct work of the Spirit in conversion. He relies on the same scriptures to prove his modified form of depravity that the old-times Baptists used to prove inherited sin. In his arguments he seems to forget his definition of "depravity" and uses about the same phraseology as used be the old-time Baptists and draws the same conclusions. "Therefore, the H.S. must accompany the word to bring life to the dead sinner."
I said that I might grant everything Mr. Bogard says about the sinner's condition, and still argue that the word is able to reach his heart and begat life. Mr. Bogard seems to limit the power of God and argues that God could not make the gospel powerful enough to reach the sinner's heart without an additional power. If he will admit that God could have revealed such a gospel, then I argue that he has done that very thing. If he says God could not, then he limits the power of God.
Bogard: "It is not a question of what God could have done. God could have made Adam and Eve in heaven to begin with had he wanted to." I responded that it is not a question of what God could have done, only as Mr. Bogard makes it so. He argues that the plan as we have it cannot reach the sinner's heart. I argue that God could have made a plan that would reach the sinner's heart, and that he has done so. Will Mr. Bogard say that God did not make as good a plan as he could have made?
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Of the above debate R. L. Whiteside vs Ben. M. Bogard (Baptist)
December 21, 1922
Hutson, Arkansas
(By R. L. Whiteside)
December 21, 1922
Hutson, Arkansas
(By R. L. Whiteside)
Debate, Oct. 24-27 at Hutson, Ark.
Mr. Bogard boldly asserted that the Baptists are the only people that can trace a line of their churches back to Christ. Time would not permit a full discussion of historic arguments. Bogard contented himself with assertions and a few scattering quotations from Baptist authorities. I called on him to find the name "Baptist Church" in literature before 1644. He then read from Benedict to prove that there were Baptist churches before the 17th century. I replied: "I can find hosts of Baptist preachers who claim there were Baptist churches before that date, but I call on Mr. Bogard to find that name in any literature written before that date." Bogard replied: "Of course the name 'Baptist Church' cannot be found in literature before 1644, because the name 'Baptist Church' is an English term, and the English language did not exist before that date." Did Bogard ever hear of Anglo-Saxons?
Mr. Bogard: "Salvation is wholly by grace, Eph. 2:8-10.. 'By grace are ye saved through faith.' We are first created unto good works." I said that Mr. Bogard fails to notice that though we are saved by grace, yet it is through faith. Now, there is a divine side and a human side. Grace brings salvation, but faith appropriates it. If we are created in Christ before we do anything, what about faith and repentance? These are commands, and the sinner is active in obeying them. Besides. Mr. Bogard argues that salvation comes in answer to prayer. While these are not the good works that Paul spoke of they are as much works as baptism. In fact, Jesus calls faith a work.
Mr. Bogard: "It is not a question of what brings grace. I am thirsty and take a drink. The water alone quenches the thirst, thought I many ask for it and it may be brought to me in a dipper. When grace reaches is the point of controversy between us." I replied that I am glad my friend made that statement and gave that illustration, for it robs him of much that is usually said about grace in discussing the design of baptism. Whether the grace of salvation comes to us in baptism will be the point at issue when we get to that question, and not whether baptism destroys grace. The usual argument is, therefore, eliminated.
On the operation of the H.S. in conversion, Mr. Bogard argued that the gospel much be preached and that the H.S. must personally accompany the word to give it force and make it effective. He modifies the doctrine of inherited depravity till he makes it but little more than an inclination to sin, yet he presents it as a basis for the necessity for a distinct work of the Spirit in conversion. He relies on the same scriptures to prove his modified form of depravity that the old-times Baptists used to prove inherited sin. In his arguments he seems to forget his definition of "depravity" and uses about the same phraseology as used be the old-time Baptists and draws the same conclusions. "Therefore, the H.S. must accompany the word to bring life to the dead sinner."
I said that I might grant everything Mr. Bogard says about the sinner's condition, and still argue that the word is able to reach his heart and begat life. Mr. Bogard seems to limit the power of God and argues that God could not make the gospel powerful enough to reach the sinner's heart without an additional power. If he will admit that God could have revealed such a gospel, then I argue that he has done that very thing. If he says God could not, then he limits the power of God.
Bogard: "It is not a question of what God could have done. God could have made Adam and Eve in heaven to begin with had he wanted to." I responded that it is not a question of what God could have done, only as Mr. Bogard makes it so. He argues that the plan as we have it cannot reach the sinner's heart. I argue that God could have made a plan that would reach the sinner's heart, and that he has done so. Will Mr. Bogard say that God did not make as good a plan as he could have made?
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